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 Balances that need addressed.

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Rook

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PostSubject: Balances that need addressed.   Sat Feb 28, 2015 1:37 am

I wouldn't have to do this, if the issues I were to present were handled in such a way that kept everyone happy. However, right now, the overwhelming majority of players involved in the ISBM-Related RP, are of the opinion that there is a wrong imbalance of forces.

Alien is a weakened nation after the Second War, and was once told to scale back his ships. He was specifically told that he was a weakened nation by eyes, right? Well, no, you're wrong to assume that, here are his fleet listings.

Bare in mind the point limit is 300.

Quote :

Carrier Strike Group 01
USS Avenger (SXN-01) - Flagship (Titan) - FREE
USS Charon (SXBN-07) - Battleship - 50 POINTS
USS Nemesis (SXBN-09) - Battleship - 50 POINTS
USS Reaper (SXCN-12) - Carrier [MOTHBALLED]


Carrier Strike Group 02
USS Hastings (CVN-88) - Supercarrier - 75 POINTS
USS Valiant (SSN-65) - Dreadnought - 75 POINTS
USS George W. Bush (SSGN-189) - Battleship [MOTHBALLED]

Carrier Strike Group 03

USS Enterprise (CVN-91) - Supercarrier - 75 POINTS
USS California (SSN-73) - Dreadnought - 75 POINTS
USS William T. Sherman (SSGN-201) - Battleship [MOTHBALLED]

Unregistered Vessel
USS Prometheus (SSX-01) - Advanced Destroyer - Unknown (wtf is an advanced destroyer?)

This brings me to ask, what is a weakened nation doing operating with 133% percent capability of another nation. Here are Aliens technology tags also.

Alien wrote:

Technology Tags:
Nuclear Physics: The United Systems, the 'successor' of a large chunk of NATO's most powerful countries, inherited the former's obsession with nuclear physics. These include anything and everything to do with the physics of nuclear reactions, particularly the harnessing of their power to produce useful work. It was that very unhealthy obsession with the nucleus of the atom that allowed the Coalition to continue its offensive operations long after Helium-3 reserves had gone critical.

Automation: Computers are the very basis on which the United Systems functions. Artificial intelligence manages many aspects of USC society in the form of the Integrated Hypercomputing Network, a collection of self-sustainable quantum computer farms that crunch through billions of hexabytes of data every second and make intelligent decisions about everything from traffic control, to disaster management to aerospace defense. Smaller computing clusters provide automation to civilian ships, military warships or even unmanned robotic soldiers. Since the end of the Second War, with much of the Coalition's population decimated, the bulk of the Coalition's infantry consists of combat robots.

Macroscale Construction: Many have jokingly claimed that the USC's designs are compensating for something, but the fact remains that the Coalition builds everything big. Frigates and destroyers, despite their significant strategic advantage when patrolling large swaths of territory, were almost non-existent in the USC's military before the Second War. Such wonders of construction included gargantuan particle accelerators, city-sized server farms and freighters that many times outsized the capital warships of other nations. Or, for the more military minded, ten-story-tall mechs and house-sized tanks. With its economical collapse following the fuel wars, the United Systems lost its complex logistics and manufacturing network, and has been forced to remove older weapon systems from mothball storage to keep up.

Projectile Warfare: Although the USC was always known for its convoluted, unnecessarily complicated solutions to everyday problems, space combat was one area where its obsession with its own unique mix of simplicity and complexity came useful. Foregoing almost all investment into laser weapon systems, save for point defense, the Coalition developed some of the most powerful conventional weapons systems in the quadrant. Missiles were its crown jewel: often equipped with nuclear-tipped warheads, Coalition missiles were one of the decisive factors that allowed the USC to hold its ground during most of the war, followed by its powerful, if not excessively massive, railguns.

Electronic Warfare: Although the Coalition's powerful computing network was sufficient to grant it an advantage in countering electronic warfare, the Second War served as a powerful jolt to the EWAR industry. Unable to defeat the combined forces of the Kal'bavakorians and the New Terrans in direct battle, the Coalition dedicated much of its research efforts on crushing enemy computer networks, leaving entire fighter squadrons derelict and vulnerable to attack. By the end of the war, the Coalition's forces had become notorious for exploiting the tiniest of backdoors and software bugs to gain an edge in battle.

Where in here are ISBMs mentioned? Not only that, but If the USC operates on a MACRO scale level, why is it allowed ISBM capable stealth fighters?

In a brief conversation once I claimed that I had with EyesofMarch I said that I had shields. He then told me I couldn't have shields unless they were in my tech tags. Now I was of the opinion that that was all fine and dandy, I simply replaced my synthetic tech tag with shields because I hadn't yet used shields and it was a simple RETCON, no harm done there.

But the hammer came down when Spud was told tonight that;

A. After sitting on his app for a good 3 months, RPing and whatnot, the admins hadn't really read it through and through, and thus shouldn't have approved it in the first place, the issue of this was that they wouldn't allow Dark Matter technology in the RP, because;
Alien to Eyes wrote:
"DARK MATTER DOES NOT INTERACT WITH MATTER. STOP. THEREFORE IT IS AS USELESS AS A WEAPON AS A GUN THAT SPITS OUT GUMMY BEARS AT SUB-BALLISTIC VELOCITIES."

Now as it seems, the admins are not allowing Spud to utilize this weapon. Even though it is listed in Blitz's fleet ruleset here

Quote :

SUPER WEAPON:
- Requires "Super Weapon" feat.
- Takes up two attack type slots.
- Takes two turns to charge.
- Only usable on flagship.
+8 to attack roll damage when using.

So why, must I ask, does Alien, the war torn society with more ships than everyone else get to go above and beyond his tech tags (I thought the limit was 4 until I saw aliens app) use stuff thats not ON his tech tags. And why does he get a weapon that can fuck up a planet instantly (not in the rulebook) and Spud cannot get a weapon that is much less potent (Which is in the rulebook) not only that, but the use of asspulling stealth units by saying they were already there, when there was no notice of them being there in the first place, and then further asspulling the placement of nukes in space:

Alien wrote:

Even if a first strike decimated the Coalition's land-based nuclear missiles, the stealth bombers and drifting ISBMs in interstellar space, along with the Avenger, could retaliate in kind.

Even if he was able to do all this, it would have already been used in the Second Interstellar war judging by his doctrine of defending areas and then rapidly attacking.

I also can't help but think that the admin team has let the rules run away with them. Alien seems to only be spotting OOC weaknesses in other players sheets now that they actually concern them, when the admins should have spotted this months ago, if they have time to pursue this hobby (which is time consuming) they should at least do the checks on who they're RPing with.

Let me be extremely clear that I DO not and WILL not say I'm doing this for personal gain or that I dislike the admin staff. I am doing this to hold the admins to account. Nobody is perfect, people get it wrong, and this time I do think you have got it wrong. A superpower, even if it was a superpower. Cannot fight against many other nations and still have enough fuel to maintain a super heavy only navy, even with cutbacks. And individual units that can launch the same missiles launched out of grounded silo's is also ridiculous.

Something needs to be done, and the COMMUNITY should talk about this, not the admin staff, it worries me that the admin in charge of what is technologically viable is also the one pushing his tech tags and nations (aft-war) capabilities to the absolute limit. It's not just hard to swallow from an OOC standpoint but from an IC, story-driven mode its absurd. CCC PLEASE.

Leave the butthurt at the door btw. I'm going to save a copy of this in case it get's deleted, not saying I expect that but the last few hours have been pretty turbulent and I don't know what to expect.
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Dabeest

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PostSubject: Re: Balances that need addressed.   Sat Feb 28, 2015 1:49 am

I don't mean to sound like a dad, but this is pretty disappointing. Admins are generally seen be paragons of the rules and what is sensible, and nothing about this strikes me as being sensible. Whilst Spud's dark matter stuff was kind of bullshit looking back on it? It should have been clocked sooner. And the other thing was he never took it too far. You guys never had to tell him off in all of his RP for using a dark-matter related weapon or engine or I dunno, some sort of power plant or something. His app has dark matter reactors. As a sci-fi fan, and as a lover of this forum, I can honestly say I just looked up the wiki article on dark matter, and the article on fusion. I didn't understand a word of either of them, and they're both in this, and as far as I can tell, they're both making the story better, so I fail to see the problem. Dark matter isn't in use in every day like so how can we possibly know what it's going to be like in the future. Its the same with fusion, isn't science all based on theories anyway? My knowledge of physics goes as far as the different models of the atom (which were probably taken as fact in their day. Or was that chemistry?

Honestly though, I don't understand why this whole time-scale thing was kicked up when you have an admin that is readily available to say he has units where he never mentioned deploying them to, especially when they're nuclear strike capable. Like that defeats the purpose of fleets if you're going to stretch the rules you wrote (did you write them? I don't know) to the absolute limit in order to better your race. Or at least that's what it looks like. I'm just saying now that I don't want to become caught up in some OOC feud for my opinions, I saw a couple of aggressive posts in Armistice this evening (that an admin was involved in) and I wouldn't want that for this post because it seems like rook has brought up some urgent issues.
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PostSubject: Re: Balances that need addressed.   Sat Feb 28, 2015 1:51 am

ISBM's have been established since the start of ATS and as far as I know there have always been a solid five tech tags for nation sheets.

Alien has always played his nation as an extremely militarized mirror of today's United States, I find it reasonable enough that the ships he has now are what remains of the USC's fleet from the war combined with new creations built in orbital shipyards and whatnot, although obviously limited as a result of fuel shortages. There seems to be a disconnect here between players who understand this is an RP-centric scenario and players who think this is more an RPG or text-based RTS where players are to 'win' over others.

The reality of the situation you are in is that you pushed his country into an impossible situation where they were to either accept a diplomatically unreliable and even warlike alien species right on their doorstep or to take the steps necessary to ensure their continued security. ISBM's, much like the real world ICBM's are largely utilized as a weapon of last resort to retaliation against other similar weaponry. You have pushed him against the wall, establishing a situation similar to the Cuban Missile Crisis. I feel you've created a very interesting scenario especially with the potential for 'peacekeepers' to be deployed with the recent AS voting, don't muddy it up with disputes over who gets what when it isn't about that to begin with. There are a million ways Spud can innovate futuristic science guns without it having to specifically be dark matter, either way this isn't necessarily restricted by absolutely practical realism and I find that particular argument on both ends to be rather silly - just let Spud do what he wants so long as it isn't absolutely ridiculous.
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The Wild Spud

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PostSubject: Re: Balances that need addressed.   Sat Feb 28, 2015 1:53 am

I hate to kick up a fuss about this but I have to agree with Rook. I never intended my nations's tech tag of Dark Matter to be a game breaking weapon, nor would I want it to be. The issue of my tech tag was brought up behind closed doors, when it should have really been brought up before the whole community, as it seems that Alien is the only person here that has an issue with me using it. If push comes to shove I would have no issue changing my technology tags. But that would mean the majority of the RP that I have done so far would be void and I would have to adjust my posts and application accordingly. Something which would be a considerable pain to do.


Last edited by The Wild Spud on Sat Feb 28, 2015 1:57 am; edited 1 time in total
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Rook

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PostSubject: Re: Balances that need addressed.   Sat Feb 28, 2015 1:55 am

Thimble wrote:
You have pushed him against the wall, establishing a situation similar to the Cuban Missile Crisis.

This is what we were going for. However it ISN'T like Cuba because the ISBM's arn't on both sides, and one side having monopoly over the weaponry makes it even more difficult to believe. Its not an RPG, I think everyone knows that otherwise they'd be playing a game. But the RP suffers when there's stuff that is openly bullshit. Also Thimble, heavily militarised doesn't mean you can just pull stuff out of dead space.

I think another half of it makes it more difficult to believe when, even in the RP-Centric scenario, aliens race as a whole just appeared amongst the UEN, the STC and the TNA.

Edit:

With the limited fuel shortages you described why havn't more of his ships been mothballed. And if its all RP centric then why are nations that didn't go through the war, but watched it happen:

Don't have ISBMS
Are limited to similar ship amounts
Can't produce their own ships on orbital dockyards
Are limited to a ship-point system in the first place?
Have their own "Militarised Society"
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Thimble

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PostSubject: Re: Balances that need addressed.   Sat Feb 28, 2015 2:01 am

Rook wrote:
Thimble wrote:
You have pushed him against the wall, establishing a situation similar to the Cuban Missile Crisis.

This is what we were going for. However it ISN'T like Cuba because the ISBM's arn't on both sides, and one side having monopoly over the weaponry makes it even more difficult to believe. Its not an RPG, I think everyone knows that otherwise they'd be playing a game. But the RP suffers when there's stuff that is openly bullshit. Also Thimble, heavily militarised doesn't mean you can just pull stuff out of dead space.

I think another half of it makes it more difficult to believe when, even in the RP-Centric scenario, aliens race as a whole just appeared amongst the UEN, the STC and the TNA.

On the contrary, I find it to be quite realistic.

You are young races who have come up against the first real wall to your expansion, provoking one of the older races who quite simply have bigger guns than you. In real life there isn't always a complete balance of technology as we've seen in real-world historical events where more powerful nations bully over weaker ones, hence the drive for many of these nations to create nuclear weapons of their own which is looked down upon by international nuclear powers.

Instead of limiting your scope to winning in this scenario or finding a favorable outcome why not experiment a bit? Naturally this is your young nations first real test when it comes to interstellar diplomacy and conflict, do you attempt to fight an impossible fight or do you try something more slick, perhaps working in secret to build your own ISBMs, perhaps with the aid of other nuclear powers?

You've created a remarkably interesting situation here, although I can agree with you on the limits imposed on Spud for his innovation and such I cannot agree that there is some form of 'imbalance' when I know Alien isn't retarded enough to actually make improper use of this so-called 'advantage'.
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PostSubject: Re: Balances that need addressed.   Sat Feb 28, 2015 2:04 am

Rook wrote:
Have their own militarised society.
Hi! Lol.

No but srsly. I'd say my society is militarised, and going by Thimbles argument being militarised means fuck all when you come to counting how much power your military has. Hell if all we had to do was say in our race sheet we were militarised to get nukes then everyone would be running around with 4th, 5th, and 6th Reichs if it meant proliferation from the space nukes which can't be shot down.

Ask yourself this, if its RP centric, and its semi-like off the Cuban Missile Crisis: Why hasn't the USC (The USSR) backed off yet? Despite the fact that the USC is in every way the aggressor from what I can see. The whole thing is written on justifications which are then delivered upon as bullshit. And the RP is not muddied but "clouded" shall we say, by Aliens asspull of stealth frigates, then openly saying the USC had registered and claimed a planet at an organisation they dont attend. An organisation Eyes of March then says hasn't had any laws written for it yet (so the planet claim stuff is crap in the first place.) So while thats mixing the OOC and the IC, Aliens IC justifications are based off OOC crap. It's also the reason alien has all these super weapons and stealth fighters and the reason he wont attend the galactic council, its because I believe HE is playing this like an RPG; HE doesn't want to lose.

At least in Cuba the USSR were at the UN.
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Punchmaster

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PostSubject: Re: Balances that need addressed.   Sat Feb 28, 2015 2:13 am

Thimble wrote:
perhaps working in secret to build your own ISBMs

Hi! Again lol.

Ontop of this just as an extra point to my last chat. The USC gave the UEN 30 minutes to comply, so I doubt secret nuke building RP could be done. The problem with this RP is alien cut it short when it could have been a drawn out diplomatic incident. But Alien refused to be diplomatic, I believe he did it cause he believed it would favour him. I've also heard that behind stage Alien did a few posts to spite Rook because of a times cale issue over the settlement of Nakgari, this only shows me that Alien is letting the OOC attitude towards another player affect the IC response of his faction, and it's left me opinionated. Before this I didn't actually want to say anything due to the fact I didn't count on Thimble posting in here, I was expecting this thread, like Rook said, to be deleted.

I'm actually worried to say too much at the minute because I'm afraid there could be bans cause the admins are hearing shit they don't want to hear. Part of me wants to tell Rook to stop digging. But another part of me says that he should have posted this cause he's pretty essential to the RP with the amount of shit he runs. Between his race and Kotunga. I think it should be okay in this community to openly challenge the admin's decisions, because the only reason I actually stopped lurking on this shit and joined was because of this Cuba-like Scenario.
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PostSubject: Re: Balances that need addressed.   Sat Feb 28, 2015 2:20 am

Punchmaster wrote:
Rook wrote:
Have their own militarised society.
Hi! Lol.

No but srsly. I'd say my society is militarised, and going by Thimbles argument being militarised means fuck all when you come to counting how much power your military has. Hell if all we had to do was say in our race sheet we were militarised to get nukes then everyone would be running around with 4th, 5th, and 6th Reichs if it meant proliferation from the space nukes which can't be shot down.

Ask yourself this, if its RP centric, and its semi-like off the Cuban Missile Crisis: Why hasn't the USC (The USSR) backed off yet? Despite the fact that the USC is in every way the aggressor from what I can see. The whole thing is written on justifications which are then delivered upon as bullshit. And the RP is not muddied but "clouded" shall we say, by Aliens asspull of stealth frigates, then openly saying the USC had registered and claimed a planet at an organisation they dont attend. An organisation Eyes of March then says hasn't had any laws written for it yet (so the planet claim stuff is crap in the first place.) So while thats mixing the OOC and the IC, Aliens IC justifications are based off OOC crap. It's also the reason alien has all these super weapons and stealth fighters and the reason he wont attend the galactic council, its because I believe HE is playing this like an RPG; HE doesn't want to lose.

At least in Cuba the USSR were at the UN.

The difference here is that the Nakar are actually playing the role of the USSR, they're trying to establish a foothold in a system that is literally only a few jumps away from the USC home-world. If anything, the USC are defending their quite literal strategic interests by ensuring they don't have a potential enemy right on their doorstep. Take into account that the Nakar and co. are actually based quite literally across the entire map.

Furthermore, he isn't the only nation to have these supposed 'super weapons', myself and Eyes also have them as well as Blitz and Superior if they were still playing. They are not even 'super weapons' really considering they are only ever used in very specific circumstances because they are quite literally the equivalent of real world nuclear weapons, their power has already been established in this RP's history as both the Kal'Bavakorians and the USC were nearly annihilated from their usage meanwhile the New Terrans only escaped destruction because they focused on non-USC targets.

Provoking a nuclear power in such a way where they have no recourse other than to use their most powerful bargaining chip is not how you go about things, there's a reason India and Pakistan are very careful around each-other and focus on funding militants and such rather than engaging in open conflict over their claims.

The USC isn't looking for a diplomatic incident, they are looking to secure their borders. In fact, I find it rather uncharacteristic for either side to even engage in diplomacy outside of straight ultimatums to begin with in this situation. The USC is literally under military governance, this provocation that couldn't be backed up with any real force was a blunder from an IC perspective that could further enrich the scenario. I have yet to see any real evidence that Alien has engaged in some conspiracy to aggrandize himself and I find these claims that admins will somehow persecute people for speaking their mind rather foolish as well because if they were the sort to do that I would've been long gone already.
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Rook

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PostSubject: Re: Balances that need addressed.   Sat Feb 28, 2015 2:21 am

One more thing, we need more admins.


This is all getting to be too much, and people are getting stretched like hell doing this to the point where its going to ruin the hobby for them.

Edit:


Thimble wrote:

myself and Eyes also have them as well as Blitz and Superior


Weren't all of you guys admins in the last one? Doesn't that say something?


Edit 2:

Still no justification for the use of FTL capable stealth bombers with FTL nukes. Even though the Tal-Nagarians were banned FTL fighters in ATS 1.
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PostSubject: Re: Balances that need addressed.   Sat Feb 28, 2015 2:30 am

Rook wrote:

Weren't all of you guys admins in the last one? Doesn't that say something?

Negative. This is actually my first ATS experience, I've not once been an admin and I barely know any of the original founders in any meaningful capacity.
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PostSubject: Re: Balances that need addressed.   Sat Feb 28, 2015 2:31 am

Wookie (Mother Superior), Alien and Blitz (Zeleyni) were all Admins in the last one.
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PostSubject: Re: Balances that need addressed.   Sat Feb 28, 2015 2:43 am

Okay, this is getting ridiculous. Alien is an upstanding gentlemen, and a VERY smart individual. He is good at playing the USC because he KNOWS what he is talking about, and does it very realistically. He, in fact, does NOT abuse his powers. I have rp'd extensively with him as his governments antagonist, the Kal'Bavakorians, and we have had amazing roleplaying opportunities. He never abused his technologies, he never abused his powers and, if we had a disagreement, we discussed it civilly and with a few jokes in between. It was fun, and exciting to be apart of an RP with the Coalition.

Now, the USC is a xenophobic human military force that lives in bareboned environments and is extremely militaristic. It doesn't back down, and it doesn't let enemies get in it's way. Based on the MANY ATS's I've been involved in with Alien, his government is reacting appropriately.

Two, I had Spud change his dark matter gun because, one, I wanted it to be realistic and, two, I heard it had the ability to destroy a '10k long ship' as per the words of Rook. So I simply asked him to change it to a laser or nuke, and said it had to be less powerful; capable of destroying a frigate in one shot. He said okay, and that was that.

Three. This isn't supposed to be fair. I TRIED to make it as fair as possible, but there are multiple NEW species and governments who have JUST entered the galactic stage who are facing off against experienced, militarized nations who have fought in massive wars, have advanced technology, and are not afraid to use it. If you threaten their established place in the galaxy and try to fight them, ALONE, you're probably going to lose. They have experienced armies, experienced tactics, and know much, much more about the galaxy than you do. So deal with it.

Four. Excuse me about the Council. The council DOES have rules, but I meant that galactic law is not in place yet. There are PAST laws that exist, such as zoning laws and whatnot, but they need to be evaluated by the new council. The Security Council does exist, and does have power. Vetoes sort of thing comparable to the United Nations. I meant, by that post, that the new council should make NEW laws and review OLD ones.

Also, perhaps the USC was LYING to you? Hrmmmmmmm?

LAST. I will NOT have people question my integrity with the belief I'm 'hiding' something, or that the admin team is 'banning' anyone because Rook is 'digging' or some bullshit like that. We are being as fair as possible, but I am a human being and I am busy as fuck. So is Alien. So deal with it. We'll do the best we can. Continue your RP, have fun, and just calm the fuck down, okay?
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PostSubject: Re: Balances that need addressed.   Sat Feb 28, 2015 2:48 am

Eyes wrote:
destroy a '10k long ship' as per the words of Rook.

I said dent. But if we're going to start pulling out and dusting off the logs. Im JK. But seriously Eyes it doesn't help that you directly say you wont have people question you. Then say no-ones going to get in trouble, we need a TL;DR of this situation, and we need to know what's changing. And you've danced around the fact alien has 400 points worth of ships. And the new nations aren't exactly new they all have a history of merely sitting out of the second stellar war, so the wind is taken from your sail on that one.

Eyes of March wrote:
It was fun, and exciting to be apart of an RP with the Coalition.

I think this thread is a proven point that fun a light at the end of the tunnel here, but this tunnel is dark right now.
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PostSubject: Re: Balances that need addressed.   Sat Feb 28, 2015 2:59 am

If they sat out a massive interstellar conflict that means they haven't reaped the rewards of immense military experience and experimentation and therefore it would be doubly suicidal to refuse a compromise with a heavily armed nuclear power who is trying to secure their territorial integrity by demanding your removal from a planet only a single sector away from their capital.

I know you have some mistrust towards us as a result of perceived advantages but if you'll observe there hasn't been a single effort made to aggrandize ourselves at your expense and I know for a fact Alien will show the proper restraint the moment you do as well. This recent incident is the greatest example of gunboat diplomacy one could have and I feel it could help establish a firm rivalry fought through clandestine means and potential further brinkmanship as your nations race to develop countermeasures to one-up each-other and establish a firm balance of power. You'll be aided in this by the fact that Alien has not yet sought any form of territorial expansion outside of this one incident in which he was provoked to do so.
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PostSubject: Re: Balances that need addressed.   Sat Feb 28, 2015 3:02 am

But there wont be any sort of after to this, EyesOfMarch has told me, MANY times on steam chat that this RP is the end of the races RP in terms of being a nation due to the all-out nature of the weapons. So the whole incident doesn't have this diplomacy or any "to be learned froms" for either side because the minute one side launches the other side, EVEN WITH Aliens current superadvantages will still win.
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PostSubject: Re: Balances that need addressed.   Sat Feb 28, 2015 3:07 am

As far as I've been aware the usage of nukes has been limited to the disputed planet itself, has that changed?

I was under the assumption that an attack against the Nakar homeworld itself was only in the event of a major conflict that could threaten the home systems or if the Nakarians deployed their own nuclear weaponry or the equivalent of such.
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PostSubject: Re: Balances that need addressed.   Sat Feb 28, 2015 3:11 am

Eyes told me that FTL nukes were anywhere any time. The Reserved slots indicated our wish to carry out a pre-emptive attack on Aliens stuff. Which was conveniently met with a ship at Talarin being ready to attack the rear. I just feel like the fact we only found out about the ISBMs halfway through the RP when we should have known it from the start affects the whole situation, when we could have avoided it. It just goes on to further suggest there isn't enough information written down.
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PostSubject: Re: Balances that need addressed.   Sat Feb 28, 2015 3:16 am

I said they could be used in the most horrid of situations, such as the situation Alien is in. If you're smart in any shape or form, you won't use nukes at all unless your species is on its deathbed. Again I leave it up to you, but I wouldnt.
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PostSubject: Re: Balances that need addressed.   Sat Feb 28, 2015 3:19 am

No you specifically said;

"lol if you win the battle youll have nothing left"

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EyesofMarch
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PostSubject: Re: Balances that need addressed.   Sat Feb 28, 2015 3:35 am

That was my assumption based on the capabilities of the USC. If you push the Coalition to where it has to nuke you, then thats his choice, although I can debate it if it seems unfair or unnecessary.
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Alien



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PostSubject: Re: Balances that need addressed.   Sat Feb 28, 2015 8:25 am

oh boy here we go

1) The fleet. I went over this with Eyes yesterday: my points are at exactly 300. The ships in RED (mothballed) are NOT COUNTED! They need POINTS to be activated, I just didn't want to have to figure out the names again later!

2) The tech tags. The first one is NUCLEAR PHYSICS, and if you look at the old application sheet, it includes nuclear weapons. I assumed it was OBVIOUS given the USC's history. In addition, the stealth came from RP, and from TAKING THE TECH REWARDS from Talarin and XE-52 that Blitz had set out in the old RP, as the USC occupied these worlds.

3) I asspulled no stealth ships. The Enterprise and Avenger strike groups had been given POSTS to establish they were there, and I simply didn't have time to establish the third strike group's position over Europa in a long post. I am sorry if I am not willing to compromise in the quality of my posts because of a perceived 'injustice'.

4) There's this mistaken notion that the Coalition went into full-out nuclear war. It didn't. In fact, it only used a tiny fraction of its nuclear arsenal to target a few defenseless Kal colonies. It used neither its first strike nor second strike capabilities to their full extent; it also never 'lost' the military conflict as hard as everyone claims, yes, it lost fleets, but its homeworld was never attacked. Also, the war was not 1v2, it was 2v2. The Valkari fought on the USC's side. Arguably it was 3v2 because the UCFP had signed a mutual defense pact with the USC, but he's has left the RP.

5) Dark matter is an absurd concept to use in the RP because according to all of our theories, it interacts with matter even more weakly than neutrinos do, it would be as powerful as a slingshot firing gummy bears through space. Contrary to popular belief, I do research into every technology I do, because AtS was never meant to be 'Star Trek' in terms of technobabble. It was meant to be closer to Battlestar Galactica: imaginable, realistic technologies that have real-world analogues and which could be reasonably expected to be developed in the future.

6) As Thimble said, the USSR is the Nakar. They are installing a foothold right next to the US border. Except this time, the USSR can't threaten with retaliation if the US strikes with nukes, so the US exercises that advantage to its max.

You will note that the USC has only threatened to nuke the planet so far, and with advance warning that is. If they were the homicidal maniacs that everyone makes them out to be, the Nakar homeworld would be ashes: they prepared to launch the Nakar homeworld only so they could have a bargaining chip if the Nakar tried to attack THEM, which they apparently are doing.

Through every step of this, the USC has tried to avoid using its nuclear weapons: it's bad politics. It only ever wanted to get the Nakar out of that planet, and it threatened to use extreme measures to do it, but what do you expect from a xenophobic nation whose last battle with aliens cost them millions of people.

7) Avenger asspull on Talarin? NOTE THE TIMESTAMPS OF THE POST. My Avenger post was made half an hour before any reserved post was made! Also, DEFCON 2 was declared, like, several OOC days ago. Everything would be already at max readiness for a war, I just did the Avenger's post because ICly 21 minutes haven't passed since the Council decided to attack.

Cool FTL nukes, aka ISBMs, are NOT FIGHTER SIZED as the Nakar fighters. They are BUILDING sized, as I established in posts made in pretty much all reincarnations of AtS. ISBMs have been established for a LONG time, and for this precise purpose: as a deterrent to armed conflict and to sudden invasions without prior planning. The USC was getting ready to nuke a planet in order to secure it's strategic interests, and it is already prepared to launch the warheads. In addition, let me remind you that the early warning network caught the Korean ships, and the USC had at least an HOUR to prepare for actual space combat (aside from already being ready due to DEFCON 2) because of the one grid = one hour rule.




As a final note, everyone needs to stop seeing the admin team as the boogeyman who will ban them if they say the wrong thing. Let me remind you that Rook was banned in the old incarnation for playing the game as an RPG, with no regard for his own people. Nobody has ever been banned for arguing, just for not knowing how to write a collaborative story. Rook is notorious for trying this stuff in the old AtS as well: he also kept nagging for admin there, as eyes has told me he is doing right now.

It is true I do not like him, but only because of his previous behavior, which he is sadly displaying again. I tried to roleplay with him by sending a bomber, and then trying the civilian fleet ruse, instead of having the USC outright nuke the planet as they would have (the only other races with a nuclear deterrent are either gone, trying to remain neutral or just not caring).

I trusted you to have changed. Please prove to me that you have.



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PostSubject: Re: Balances that need addressed.   Sat Feb 28, 2015 12:52 pm

I believe Alien has addressed everyone's concerns in a remarkably impartial way considering the circumstances and accusations levied against him. The fact of the matter is that the Nakar are facing a strategic loss whilst achieving a diplomatic victory at that expense.

Furthermore to add more information about the 'Great War' itself,

It was fought between every major power of the Galaxy aside from the Zeleniyans, on one part you had a collective group of allied nations, what is now called the Galactic Security Treaty Organization or GSTO, consisted of the Kal'Bavakorians, the New Terrans and the Red Sun Imperium. Who faced off against the United Systems, the UCFP and the Valkarian Empire, the Greater Commonwealth of Systems also became involved largely as a result of New Terran aggression and I've specified in lore-centric posts how the New Terrans conducted interplanetary warfare on a massive scale being involved in invasions of two homeworlds and countless other holdings whilst the Red Sun and Kal'Bavakorians focused their efforts against the USC and the Valkarians.

The way I see it is that the massive scale of the combat and it's stresses on industry and societal progress forced the war to come to a premature end before any major usage of nuclear weaponry was able to be utilized. Fuel shortages have now become common and any major attempt to wage war would come with a hefty price at this point.

Now I don't have any official authority to dictate canon, this is just the conclusions I've drawn from current lore posts and what authorization I've actually been given by players, both Zombiedude and Wookie are fine with my interpretation of events in regards to their particular nations.
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Alien



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PostSubject: Re: Balances that need addressed.   Sat Feb 28, 2015 1:16 pm

Yeah, Thimble pretty much nailed it. The only use of nuclear weapons was against two Kal colonies (just a couple of dozen missiles, not even the tip of the iceberg of the USC arsenal!), and in retaliation they destroyed two USC colonies.

The war ended in a stalemate, not a massive loss for one side.
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PostSubject: Re: Balances that need addressed.   Sat Feb 28, 2015 3:28 pm

Because Alien's just told us about this admin boogeyman thing not being true its time to lay the cards on the table as simple maths, this fleet thing is STILL crap. Plus, I don't think what Rook has done here has nagged you guys, if you guys gave an inch to this fleet argument it would actually prove that the system works and you wouldn't have this amount of dissatisfied players. Coupled with this, for two days the Network had their app approved and Eyes proceeded to not review the app and instead post from what I've heard. The timestamps match this. So I can get behind this "nagging" if you want your admin staff to do an effective job. Sure, they're human. Sure, they're busy. Sure, they've got their own commitments. But as that screen cap stated, being an admin is NOT a hobby, it is a job, which does require constant activity and its not going to cut the mustard if you flip out and de-activate when things get tough. Admins should have to put up with the nagging, they're the admins for goodness sake. If they arn't the boogeymen then why are the clearly getting annoyed over this when they should be going like; "I respect your opinion and I understand why you feel like that but-" the admins don't give an inch on this server, especially when they don't seem to know the mechanics of the RP in terms of ship combat, which is onto my next topic;

Super Carriers and Dreadnoughts are flagship variants though are they not? Look here about a super carrier.

Blitz wrote:

Supercarrier
Carrier based version of "super weapon"
- Restricted to Flagships.
- Takes up both attack type slots.
- Decreases AC by 4.
- Decreases 4 AC against boarding parties.
- Decreases HP by 15.
- You now have an extra carrier bay with 2 more fighter bomber squadrons.


USS Hastings (CVN-88) - Supercarrier
USS Hastings (CVN-88) - Supercarrier

So that's 150 points.

Alien wrote:

USS Charon (SXBN-07) - Battleship
USS Nemesis (SXBN-09) - Battleship

Then you have these two, which is 100 points because a battleship is 50 points.
(250 Adding on previous numbers)
Then you have THESE two

Alien wrote:

USS Valiant (SSN-65) - Dreadnought - 75 POINTS
USS California (SSN-73) - Dreadnought - 75 POINTS
(350 adding on previous numbers AKA Not Allowed)
(Possibly 400 adding on previous numbers AKA Not Allowed)
Even if the dreadnoughts were just battleships or something of the sort, and they'd be 50 points, if eyes approved your navy, and he was working with the system the rest of us are, it would be wrong.

Alien wrote:

USS Prometheus (SSX-01) - Advanced Destroyer

And this? This isn't even clear what this is. And I think its deliberately vague. If eyes told you you could have these ships, he's wrong. If you're working of any sort of fair system, in which you're supposed to be weakened anyway, you're still favouritism, through admin ignorance to the system or through direct intent.

Coupled with this, what is the difference in size between an FTL capable stealth (Even if stealth still isn't on your tech tags!) bomber and a heavy fighter? I'm just sayin. But of course, you decide what's viable, you're the admin after all.
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