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 Balances that need addressed.

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Punchmaster

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PostSubject: Re: Balances that need addressed.   Sat Feb 28, 2015 3:37 pm

Alien, I think that your "I tried to roleplay with him" excuse is extremely hollow.

Alien wrote:

Let me remind you that Rook was banned in the old incarnation for playing the game as an RPG, with no regard for his own people. Nobody has ever been banned for arguing, just for not knowing how to write a collaborative story. Rook is notorious for trying this stuff in the old AtS as well: he also kept nagging for admin there, as eyes has told me he is doing right now.

You're point scoring here, I don't see Rook as at all discredited by this post and neither should anyone else, the points he listed here were valid.

Alien wrote:

It is true I do not like him, but only because of his previous behavior, which he is sadly displaying again. I tried to roleplay with him by sending a bomber, and then trying the civilian fleet ruse

and then trying the civilian fleet ruse

I have read logs of you basically saying you sent in that fleet with OOC intentions to put him in an impossible position IC because he timeskipped you. With you literally saying the words "YOU ALWAYS DO THIS." Why should you get to do this. Why should you lower yourself to his level. And then, on the forums, infront of everyone try and embarrass him for why he got banned in the last AtS?
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Rook

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PostSubject: Re: Balances that need addressed.   Sat Feb 28, 2015 3:43 pm

It's also clear that you should have thought about Nakgari in a different light than Nakar-Nagari Aggression. The thread actually EXISTED before the USC were a race on the race sheet, so its not fair to put yourself beside their colony then say they're the aggressor which is a MAJOR factor I think I lot of people are missing here. Which basically does mean we're not the USSR in this whole thing because we were there first and YOU came out of nowhere, it just seemed like you placed yourself there to get up our ass. Its always been the common conception that Nakgari was SUPPOSED to be a western flank in a war against the Saphrithids, but the USC just plopping down in a region of space where there is nothing has forced us to cancel all our RP regarding that matter and form an alliance due to the danger it presents. And so far it hasn't been fun. All efforts to be collaberative have been met with either admin or player discontent. Every time any threatening moves are made they are completely second guessed and/or dismantled OOC (Ban of Dark Matter, FTL Capable Stealth Bombers, The Superweapon feat just randomly disappearing and those involved NOT getting any closure.)

Right now it just seems like such a bullshit hastle I wan't to RETCON the whole damn thing, but knowing Alien, it just seems like he's going for me, IC and OOC, so it will happen again, and again, and AGAIN. The most common thing I've heard among other players is that Alien "Really has it out for me." And its simple to see in his IC reflections. All offensive capability is toward the Nakar homeworld and not the Nagari homeworld, a partner in the RP.

Further to this, the busy schedules of the admins seemed to free up when dealing with the issue? So I guess that excused has gone to pot now huh?
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EyesofMarch
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PostSubject: Re: Balances that need addressed.   Sat Feb 28, 2015 3:45 pm

Point System: 300 points

I'll not be including boarding parties and fighter squadrons for 'points', since these should be included in larger class starcraft, in the instance of boarding parties, or specially fitted craft, for hanger bays, depending on your race's ship structure.




Frigate
POINTS PER SHIP: 15

Destroyer
POINTS PER SHIP: 20

Cruiser
POINTS PER SHIP: 30

Battleship/Carrier
POINTS PER SHIP: 40

Dreadnaught/Supercarrier
POINTS PER SHIP: 50

Flagship (LIMIT ONE PER NATION)
POINTS PER SHIP: ONE FREE FLAGSHIP PER SPECIES/GOVERNMENT. If your race needs to construct a new flagship, it will cost your race 75 points.  




USS Hastings (CVN-88) - Supercarrier - 50
USS Hastings (CVN-88) - Supercarrier -50

SS Charon (SXBN-07) - Battleship - 40
USS Nemesis (SXBN-09) - Battleship - 40

USS Valiant (SSN-65) - Dreadnought - 50
USS California (SSN-73) - Dreadnought - 50

USS Prometheus (SSX-01) - Advanced Destroyer - 20

Avenger - 0 points as it is a flagship

A perfect 300.
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EyesofMarch
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PostSubject: Re: Balances that need addressed.   Sat Feb 28, 2015 3:47 pm

Also you are all fucking new. Y'all don't even know what Alien does, or what I do, or what anyone does here. You are listening to what Rook is saying and basing your entire opinion off that.

Also, LIKE I SAID BEFORE, we are doing all combat from an RP stance. We are NOT using a combat RPG system. It's all RP'D.
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Alien



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PostSubject: Re: Balances that need addressed.   Sat Feb 28, 2015 3:47 pm

We did away with the traits/feats/etc. thing, check the UPDATED fleet composition system. Supercarriers and Dreadnoughts cost 50 points. Battleships cost 40. Destroyers (the advanced is just a fancy USC way of saying prototype) cost 20. If you add it all up it gives 300 points.

Stealth in space is 99% electronic countermeasures, and the other 1% is simple hull refrigeration. Electronic warfare IS included in the USC tags as the fifth tag.

The difference between an FTL-capable bomber or dropship and a fighter is about a 400% increase in size, the removal of pretty much all rapid maneuvering capability and having no close-range weaponry. It's like comparing a B-52 Stratofortress with an F16. You might have noticed that I have established USC bombers to have very cramped interiors, even though they are massive compared to the fighters: that's because the additional space is used for the jump drive and its support systems.

In the end of the day, these are all concerns that anyone can reach me about, both on steam and on the forums. Despite what you might think, a lot of research has gone into establishing the technological basis for AtS.




I am not trying to embarrass anyone, I am just stating all the facts. People have a right to know about the history between Rook, me and this roleplay setting. People who were present in that incarnation of AtS will remember that Rook's actions follow the same exact pattern. I am just warning against a repeat of history here.

I had no OOC intentions to put him in an impossible position. My only PPC intentions were to have the USC react as it has been established to; THEY wanted to put the Nakar into an impossible situation. Discussing the USC's plan OOCly is only in the interests of sharing it with others, not some admission of OOC intent.

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Rook

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PostSubject: Re: Balances that need addressed.   Sat Feb 28, 2015 3:54 pm

So you're trying to tell me you edited the WHOLE fleet composition system to suite ONLY your needs? Well that's stupid, why did we need to do that to suite the needs of one person. If anyone else asked for that it wouldn't happen.
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Alien



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PostSubject: Re: Balances that need addressed.   Sat Feb 28, 2015 4:06 pm

How could anything of what I said be interpreted like that? If I wanted the system to accommodate my needs then I would have made it use the exact amount of points that the USC needed to have three full strike groups. For one, the system was jointly decided upon by me and Eyes. I didn't just say 'oh i want it like that' and make it law.

The system was corrected because it did not account for ships established in AtS lore for years: Flagships/Titans were always meant to be DIFFERENT than dreadnoughts/supercarriers, not equal with them.

Stop trying to put words in my mouth, please.
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PostSubject: Re: Balances that need addressed.   Sat Feb 28, 2015 4:07 pm

Yes, but its only helping your fleet, and it also means you're the only one who doesn't need to restructure their fleet, everyone else needs to change theirs due the points difference. Which looks to me like you just didn't want to change your perfect system, because of course, you're never wrong!
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Rook

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PostSubject: Re: Balances that need addressed.   Sat Feb 28, 2015 4:10 pm

You keep also going on about how this shit is in AtS for years when you're conversing with NEW players who can't just be like "Oh yeah" and you're expecting them to know all this shit that NOBODY knew about. ISBMS, Dreadnoughts, What actually happened in the 2nd Stellar War, its written NOWHERE. (Admins? Maybe pick up on this hint?)
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Punchmaster

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PostSubject: Re: Balances that need addressed.   Sat Feb 28, 2015 4:10 pm

Rook wrote:
You keep also going on about how this shit is in AtS for years when you're conversing with NEW players who can't just be like "Oh yeah" and you're expecting them to know all this shit that NOBODY knew about. ISBMS, Dreadnoughts, What actually happened in the 2nd Stellar War, its written NOWHERE. (Admins? Maybe pick up on this hint?)

THIS.
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Alien



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PostSubject: Re: Balances that need addressed.   Sat Feb 28, 2015 4:12 pm

I don't need to restructure my fleet? You mean like having to completely gimp the USC's established CSG doctrine (dreadnought + supercarrier + 2 battleships) because I didn't have space to fit additional battleships? Or having to waste 20 points in a destroyer that would've been better off being a carrier? Please.

We all compromise.

Everything about ISBMs, dreadnoughts, the 2nd Stellar War is written, even in few words, in the information threads and the backstories of the old nations. Instead of trying to present it as some big injustice against the players, you could make a suggestion about presenting the information concisely, I would be PERFECTLY willing to do that.
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PostSubject: Re: Balances that need addressed.   Sat Feb 28, 2015 4:15 pm

We all compromise, but you compromise the least, and you benefit from it because the shit you've written down just HAS to break the rules. But the whole presenting the information concisely stuff is irrelevant now because NOW people know, and that's why this shit is going down.
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Punchmaster

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PostSubject: Re: Balances that need addressed.   Sat Feb 28, 2015 4:17 pm

It honestly seems like Eyes is propping Alien up to keep Alien in the RP by only mentioning the ISBMs intentionally late, changing the fleet stats to advantage alien and now that we have enough guys together to flatten the system that they've set up so nobody can be invulnerable, so now they're throwing the toys out. It's pretty simple, you guys aren't hearing what you wanna hear and losing your shit over it.
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PostSubject: Re: Balances that need addressed.   Sat Feb 28, 2015 4:20 pm

You continue to accuse wildly without presenting any actual evidence. Please do enlighten me on how I compromise the least, because I had to go through a LOT of reiterations after the system changed to figure out how to organize my fleet.

http://amongstthestars.forumotion.com/t101-backstory-for-amongst-the-stars

ISBMs as a term may not be mentioned in the backstory, but jump cruise missiles are, and they are the same damn thing! And in any case, AtS is NOT a lazy setting. Everyone is meant to study the old threads for information, we can't be expected to present everything ready for digestion in a silver platter, since we DO have very busy lives (and no, Rook, for the 1000th time you are not becoming an admin).

Speaking of which, I have a clinical rotation. I will be back later.
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EyesofMarch
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PostSubject: Re: Balances that need addressed.   Sat Feb 28, 2015 4:21 pm

You guys are ridiculous. We aren't losing our shit when, in fact, you all are losing yours. If you had simply messaged me and asked 'Hey Eyes, what DID happen during the war?" I would have answered. Again, like I said, I don't have the time to write EVERYTHING out. I did the best I could. Not to mention that, if you READ the backstory of species and the actual RP's backstory, you would have an idea of what is going on.
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PostSubject: Re: Balances that need addressed.   Sat Feb 28, 2015 4:31 pm

"It's not me that's wrong, its ALL OF YOU that are wrong!"

Oh come ON. You cannot possibly say that the minority of the admin team are in the right when the whole forum is openly conflicted on this issue. I'm not asking to be an admin, I wouldn't have to ask to be an admin if the admins didn't have to be butthurt baited into doing everything. The only way you can actually manuvre the admins to do something past their wall of "I'm busy, Im tired, I'm menstruating" is to rile them up and then they'll do it, they're a victim of their own damn ineptitude.

The first mistake when you have a problem is to act like it isn't there.
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Rook

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PostSubject: Re: Balances that need addressed.   Sat Feb 28, 2015 4:37 pm

At first it was about the fleets, you didn't fix it.

Secondly you made Aliens fleet work and all of our fleets need to be changed.

Thirdly you claim you're open to criticism when infact you're not.

This statement proves that the whole community is wrong, and eyes is right apparently.

4th

We evidently can't when half of them are written down and you change them that often.

Lastly, I feel this needs a mention.



I understand no sense of calm or sense of control, repeatedly getting the fleet combat system wrong, misreading apps and other things, and then you say I'm not getting admin when half the time I'm the first one to notice new races and new posts. The only reason I'm angry is one thing; apathy. If this thread, no matter if the admins play it off as bullshit its still a sign that something's not being done the right way because the majority of people aren't happy.

The simple sentence is, you can easily be annoyed or be quick to get rambled, but at least know that you have a job to do, and if you're an admin it's not play and no work.
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PostSubject: Re: Balances that need addressed.   Sat Feb 28, 2015 4:42 pm

Oh, so now you're using logs of personal conversations? Very nice Rook, very nice. Especially not using context or anything with these logs.

WAIT WAIT WAIT.

and then you say I'm not getting admin when half the time I'm the first on

So is THAT what this is all about?
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PostSubject: Re: Balances that need addressed.   Sat Feb 28, 2015 4:47 pm

Again, if you are trying to base this roleplay around things that can be won or lost you have the wrong mentality, this was at first completely about RP(within reason of course) and it played out perfectly before IRL obligations forced inactivity upon people. The problem now is that there is this bizarre pseudo-RPG conception that was introduced that makes little sense and is hardly established in any meaningful way, this 'fleet system' is something I haven't even bothered to take part in as I believe everything should be handled ICly.

So therefore I will agree with Rook on his assessment of the 'rules' but I'm of the belief these systems are superfluous to begin with. One thing I am absolutely opposed to, on the other hand, is Rook's repeated attempts to curry favor and force himself into an admin position based on extremely arbitrary assessments and vague conclusions combined with inane conspiracy theories.

I have but one question: What does Alien or Eyes have to gain from conspiring to give themselves an advantage on an extremely obscure roleplay board? It's a ridiculous accusation, especially considering the fact that many of these 'complaints' about information are doubly ficticious when you take into account the public statements that the current ATS was a continuation of the old which has a public archives board directly below our current one. Absolutely nobody can argue this was produced from nowhere when existing proof exists so plainly for all to see.

Edit: Rook if you want more logs my man, why did you deny my SF request?


Last edited by Thimble on Sat Feb 28, 2015 4:49 pm; edited 1 time in total
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PostSubject: Re: Balances that need addressed.   Sat Feb 28, 2015 4:48 pm

LOL

"FUCK, they're making me look stupid, lets exploit this sentence."

I don't want admin because It would mean having to work with you guys, this is about Eyes not having a clue about the system which he apparently "brought back and worked hard on" (edit: when his ineptitude shows he clearly didnt!) and look where all this hard work went.

This is not about me wanting admin. Its about you propping up alien to no end and attempting to legitimise it with a lot of bullshit.

Edit: Thimble I get loads of adds cause of my CSGO inventory, add again.


Last edited by Rook on Sat Feb 28, 2015 4:54 pm; edited 1 time in total
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PostSubject: Re: Balances that need addressed.   Sat Feb 28, 2015 4:50 pm

by the way, Thimble, if this is your first ATS experience, why do you get ISBMs and the other new races don't?
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PostSubject: Re: Balances that need addressed.   Sat Feb 28, 2015 4:54 pm

Rook wrote:


This is not about me wanting admin. Its about you propping up alien to no end and attempting to legitimise it with a lot of bullshit.

I'm sorry to see that after a days thought you have finally reneged your ambitions.

I've been awaiting proof that Alien is somehow being propped up through a conspiracy legitimized using 'bullshit' as you say, but you've yet to provide any conclusive or substantial evidence of this.

Alien writes incredibly detailed posted, this may seem like he's powergaming or somesuch but almost every piece of technology he utilizes has been adequately described and detailed immaculately on his nation sheet and he has not once used this to aggrandize himself or his position.

The argument that he purposefully placed his nation in a position just to somehow foil your attempts to take a system is equally ludicrous especially considering that is the de facto area where his nation has always been since the original - which I've proven above is a direct continuation from the previous ATS with minor historical changes to make up for the time lapse.

Furthermore, I have ISBM's because I actually RP'd developing them as you can easily find in the archives, I know you hate actually researching an argument but cmon man you have to atleast try before making false accusations. Also it makes sense that my nation would've developed these weapons as a direct response to being in a state of hostility against the USC.
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PostSubject: Re: Balances that need addressed.   Sat Feb 28, 2015 4:57 pm

It's not about Alien, I don't fault Aliens rp or his writing, his level of detail is impeccable and his ability to write for exceeds mine, but it sounds like far more is going on behind closed doors, not by alien but by Eyes, the rules are running away with him. And the rest of us are only trying to keep up.
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PostSubject: Re: Balances that need addressed.   Sat Feb 28, 2015 4:58 pm

If this is such a train-wreck, and it's turning into one fast, we're beyond construction here we're just point scoring now. Why don't you guys just RETCON the whole thing? Its obvious that both parties are as unflinching IC as they are OOC.
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PostSubject: Re: Balances that need addressed.   Sat Feb 28, 2015 5:00 pm

I don't mean to be the side thorn here. But I don't think ISBMs and FTL Capable Stealth Bombers are USNC-Covenant Level tech. And I'd agree with Rook this is probably going to be a rule that's changed by Eyes in some runaway train rule change.
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